Tuesday 13 September 2011

Blighter Unrocked

Just when I was wondering what to write, whether to bother continuing with the blog and so on (see my last post...), a commenter, Part-time Pilgrim, posted a comment that I thought worth a reply. And a reply can become a post, if one rambles on for long enough...

Here’s what P-t P (to whom thanks for an interesting and thought provoking comment) had to say, with my comments interspersed.
I think you have a point when you call for an increased respect for the sanctuary and it is easy to see how the removal of altar rails may have resulted in a lack of reverence for a holy place within a holy place. I have no argument with a call for more reverence on and for the sanctuary.
A civil post, starting with points of agreement: always a courteous strategy, and one I could adopt more often, perhaps...
However the call to keep the sanctuary all-male is dubious. You claim authority from the Old Covenant but in the Old Covenant the Holy of Holies was only accessible to a select few.
I think that this slightly misunderstands my point. I was not claiming authority from the Old Covenant, but example. There is a difference. I think the Jewish people were formed in this way for a reason, even if we do not fully understand it.
When Jesus died the veil of the temple which divided the holy of holies from the court of the priests was torn from top to bottom marking the end to this exclusive access and the beginning of the New Covenant. In this New Covenant, all, Greek or Jew, woman or man, slave or free can receive the incarnate God body, blood soul and divinity.
Indeed, but the question here isn’t about reception of the incarnate God. [NB Another tradition I like is not using the Holy Name in normal conversation: we always used to talk about 'Our Lord' when mentioning Him in this kind of context.] There has never in the history of the Church, as far as I am aware, been any move to exclude women from reception of Holy Communion. The issue is about ways of service, and there is an unbroken tradition, instituted by the Incarnate God Himself, of male-only priesthood. So the question becomes: does service in the sanctuary follow the traditions and laws associated with admission to the priesthood or those associated with admission to the reception of Holy Communion?
Neither can you argue the idea of a sanctuary can be traced unbroken down to the institution of the New Covenant. It is something that emerged under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the Church grew. If we accept that God guides the Church are we to beleive [sic] that he stopped guiding it so that it could go astray and allow women on the sanctuary? Is it not more likely that this, too, is part of God's guidance?
I do not know of any evidence that demonstrates female ministration at the altar, or at the ‘breaking of the bread,’ even at the earliest times. I think the idea that this 'emerged' is speculative. I have noticed that those who challenge traditional practice often make claims about earlier practice in absolute terms, when they are in fact speculation. I don't blame P-t P for this, as I suspect he or she has 'learned' this from someone else... There has been a lot of dubious misinformation put about to support some of the 'progressive' changes.

The second point here, about God’s guidance, is more thought-provoking. However, we know that the Church has never claimed to be inerrant in terms of practice. Indeed, the urgent need for a better translation of the Mass than the very poor one foisted on us by ICEL in the late 60s and early 70s demonstrates that the Holy Spirit allows the Church to wander off-track for short periods in areas that do not directly contradict Faith and Morals. I believe that admission of women to the sanctuary (and many other aberrations permitted since the Second Vatican Council, but never authorised, let alone mandated, by it) is an example of such an error.

If forced to choose between the Church’s tradition for centuries and a fad of a few decades, I will give the tradition far more weight. When one looks at the cumulative effect of the de-sacralisation of Catholic worship in Europe, I think it is hard to argue that this is all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Our children are abandoning their Faith in catastrophic numbers, our priests and nuns are in decline, our Catholic population is barely Catholic (given the numbers contracepting, the paucity of attendance on Holy Days of Obligation, the lack of queues for confessionals, and the appalling irreverence and ignorance betrayed by so many who wander round our sanctuaries - or indeed any other measure you care to look at...). I think most of this is in accordance with the permissive will of God (ie allowing us to make mistakes and to sin), not His active will.
I don't think you have made your case (and neither did William Oddie - the decline in vocations preceded the introduction of female altar servers)
Yes, I think Dr Oddie’s case was poorly made, too. As for mine - clearly I think I have made it, but then I am not precisely an unbiased observer... What I would say is that the decline in vocations may have been (and causality is always hard to prove: post hoc propter hoc and all that...) a result of the cumulative changes made in the name of (though not in strict obedience to) the Second Vatican Council.
What I am really interested in, though, is how you explain to Mrs Trovato, Antonia, Bernedette [sic] and Dominique how their presence on the sanctuary (without a vacuum cleaner) desecrates it. And assuming you are ever that reckless, how they respond.
A great question, and the one that really provoked this response (the rest, as I was candid enough to admit early on, was largely a ramble...)

The answer is actually very simple. We attend the Extraordinary Form of Mass (typically once a month) and the Ordinary Form the rest of the time. They observe, and they draw their own conclusions. None of them would venture onto the sanctuary, and none of them feel ‘excluded’ or ‘de-valued’ or anything else negative as a result. They simply recognise the wisdom of the Church’s historic tradition in this area as in so many others. It works - and they all prefer the Extraordinary Form, as they find it more prayerful, more sacred.

10 comments:

Triduana said...

The argument "it is not fair not to let women serve at the altar" only really makes sense if you think serving at the altar is somehow better or is some kind of fuller participation in the liturgy than not serving at the altar. Which is a) clericalism of the silliest kind and b)obviously daft, else most people at Mass would be there in some kind of inferior capacity.

If you were at a dinner and your friend the host asked you to serve as a waiter because the catering firm had messed up, you wouldn't think the folk not waitering were being excluded from something.

Part-time Pilgrim said...

Ben

Thank you for your extended response. I was not sure whether to write a post on my own blog or respond directly on yours. I think making a number of comments is best – one of the silent vows I took when I started my blog was not to use it to take a position on the traditionalist v progressive divide, mostly because I am vain enough to consider myself above being landed with one label or the other and consider myself simply and ordinary Catholic. In addition I think the posturing by some on both sides is reminiscent of the divisions (I am for Cephas, I am for Apollos etc.) that Paul condemns in the First Letter to the Corinthians – unedifying and potentially harmful to the Church.

Part-time Pilgrim said...

So to respond to your response:

[[However the call to keep the sanctuary all-male is dubious. You claim authority from the Old Covenant but in the Old Covenant the Holy of Holies was only accessible to a select few.]]

[I think that this slightly misunderstands my point. I was not claiming authority from the Old Covenant, but example. There is a difference. I think the Jewish people were formed in this way for a reason, even if we do not fully understand it.]

Yes, I did misunderstand your point. Claiming authority was exactly what I thought you were doing. If it’s an example you are presenting, it’s worth considering whether this example is a good one to follow. It is one where access is restricted according to status – Priests are more important than male Jews, male Jews more important than female Jews and gentiles least important of all. This, very human way of organising things seems to me like another example of humankind being “unteachable” rather than a good pattern for current practice.

Part-time Pilgrim said...

[[When Jesus died the veil of the temple which divided the holy of holies from the court of the priests was torn from top to bottom marking the end to this exclusive access and the beginning of the New Covenant. In this New Covenant, all, Greek or Jew, woman or man, slave or free can receive the incarnate God body, blood soul and divinity.]]

[Indeed, but the question here isn’t about reception of the incarnate God. [NB Another tradition I like is not using the Holy Name in normal conversation: we always used to talk about 'Our Lord' when mentioning Him in this kind of context.] There has never in the history of the Church, as far as I am aware, been any move to exclude women from reception of Holy Communion. The issue is about ways of service, and there is an unbroken tradition, instituted by the Incarnate God Himself, of male-only priesthood.]

Here, I think you have misunderstood my point. I am certainly not arguing for women to be admitted to the priesthood. Whilst there is an unbroken tradition of male-only priesthood, there is not an unbroken tradition of reserving part of the church for men only.

Part-time Pilgrim said...

[So the question becomes: does service in the sanctuary follow the traditions and laws associated with admission to the priesthood or those associated with admission to the reception of Holy Communion?]

If we followed your recommendation the answer would be neither, wouldn’t it? As a married man I am barred from the priesthood but would be permitted to serve on the altar. My wife and daughters (all unmarried) would be barred from both the priesthood and the sanctuary.

Part-time Pilgrim said...

[[Neither can you argue the idea of a sanctuary can be traced unbroken down to the institution of the New Covenant. It is something that emerged under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the Church grew. If we accept that God guides the Church are we to beleive [sic] that he stopped guiding it so that it could go astray and allow women on the sanctuary? Is it not more likely that this, too, is part of God's guidance?]]

[I do not know of any evidence that demonstrates female ministration at the altar, or at the ‘breaking of the bread,’ even at the earliest times.]

Neither do I and I am not arguing for women priests. I know of no evidence that in the earliest times women were excluded from a particular area of the place where the Eucharist was being celebrated either.

[I think the idea that this 'emerged' is speculative. I have noticed that those who challenge traditional practice often make claims about earlier practice in absolute terms, when they are in fact speculation.]

I would argue it is self-evident, rather than speculation. There could be no notion of a sanctuary before there was a church building for the sanctuary to be in.

[I don't blame P-t P for this, as I suspect he or she has 'learned' this from someone else... There has been a lot of dubious misinformation put about to support some of the 'progressive' changes.]

I am upset by this – partly because it is condescending not to blame people for their ideas (or typos) if those ideas (or spellings) are wrong but also because I hate being lumped in with people who use ideas about the “early church” to challenge what the Catholic church teaches, a group that includes both “progressive Catholics” and Protestants but not me.

Part-time Pilgrim said...

[The second point here, about God’s guidance, is more thought-provoking. However, we know that the Church has never claimed to be inerrant in terms of practice. Indeed, the urgent need for a better translation of the Mass than the very poor one foisted on us by ICEL in the late 60s and early 70s demonstrates that the Holy Spirit allows the Church to wander off-track for short periods in areas that do not directly contradict Faith and Morals. I believe that admission of women to the sanctuary (and many other aberrations permitted since the Second Vatican Council, but never authorised, let alone mandated, by it) is an example of such an error.]

I agree – allowing women on the sanctuary no has connection with the Second Vatican Council.

[If forced to choose between the Church’s tradition for centuries and a fad of a few decades, I will give the tradition far more weight. When one looks at the cumulative effect of the de-sacralisation of Catholic worship in Europe, I think it is hard to argue that this is all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Our children are abandoning their Faith in catastrophic numbers, our priests and nuns are in decline, our Catholic population is barely Catholic (given the numbers contracepting, the paucity of attendance on Holy Days of Obligation, the lack of queues for confessionals, and the appalling irreverence and ignorance betrayed by so many who wander round our sanctuaries - or indeed any other measure you care to look at...). I think most of this is in accordance with the permissive will of God (ie allowing us to make mistakes and to sin), not His active will.]

I visited Margaret Clitherow’s shrine on Saturday. When she was executed in 1586 someone could have described the Tridentine mass that was regularly and secretly celebrated in her home as “a fad of a few decades.” Time proved that this was not the case. Similarly if you are right about keeping women off the sanctuary, the church will revert to its former rules and will do so soon. If I am right, it won’t. Either way, you can’t blame that rule change for all the ills in the church, which is what it seems to me, the above paragraph does.

Part-time Pilgrim said...

[[I don't think you have made your case (and neither did William Oddie - the decline in vocations preceded the introduction of female altar servers)]]

[Yes, I think Dr Oddie’s case was poorly made, too. As for mine - clearly I think I have made it, but then I am not precisely an unbiased observer... What I would say is that the decline in vocations may have been (and causality is always hard to prove: post hoc propter hoc and all that...) a result of the cumulative changes made in the name of (though not in strict obedience to) the Second Vatican Council.]

I am still not convinced. I don’t think I understand your case beyond “Women ought not be allowed on the sanctuary because they were not allowed there for hundreds of years.” On this basis everything we have done for a long time should be preserved and nothing changed. For the church to go back on a decision already made, I want to hear a compelling argument why the presence of women on the sanctuary makes it less holy.

Part-time Pilgrim said...

[[What I am really interested in, though, is how you explain to Mrs Trovato, Antonia, Bernedette [sic] and Dominique how their presence on the sanctuary (without a vacuum cleaner) desecrates it. And assuming you are ever that reckless, how they respond.]]

[A great question, and the one that really provoked this response (the rest, as I was candid enough to admit early on, was largely a ramble...)

The answer is actually very simple. We attend the Extraordinary Form of Mass (typically once a month) and the Ordinary Form the rest of the time. They observe, and they draw their own conclusions. None of them would venture onto the sanctuary, and none of them feel ‘excluded’ or ‘de-valued’ or anything else negative as a result. They simply recognise the wisdom of the Church’s historic tradition in this area as in so many others. It works - and they all prefer the Extraordinary Form, as they find it more prayerful, more sacred.]

Your family’s agreement with your position has allowed you to duck the question, so let me ask it in a different way. How would I explain to my wife (who reads at Mass) and my daughters (who have all served at mass when younger) how their presence defiles the holiness of the sanctuary? They can speak for themselves but I imagine they might feel excluded and would certainly feel devalued, for if women are of equal value with men why is there a place in church where men are allowed and women are not?

Forgive this long and rambling reply and feel free to tell me to “butt out” if my comments are not welcome.

Ben Trovato said...

Triduana: You will not be surprised that I agree: thanks for your comment.

Part-time Pilgrim: you will not be surprised that I do not agree in whole... Thanks for your comment; response is a new post...