tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post3233003115671903231..comments2023-10-15T09:36:12.013+01:00Comments on Countercultural Father: What’s the problem with Catholic Voices?Ben Trovatohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-85757920148329454572012-01-21T14:23:23.424+00:002012-01-21T14:23:23.424+00:00Helen
Thanks for your comment and kind words abou...Helen<br /><br />Thanks for your comment and kind words about my blog.<br /><br />You are clearly better placed than I am to know how obedience plays out in this situation (though I would point out I made no mention of vows).<br /><br />However, my substantive point, that Jack Valero's tweet was not the height of PR skill, remains intact, I think.Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-29804556070212799412012-01-21T12:34:52.786+00:002012-01-21T12:34:52.786+00:00Ben, you say: "And of course, we know that an...Ben, you say: "And of course, we know that any numerary member of Opus Dei is bound by the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity and obedience. When Jack Valero is acting as Coordinator for Catholic Voices, he does not, presumably, leave his obedience to his Opus Dei superiors at the door. So the claim that he is acting in a purely private capacity is hard for anyone outside Opus Dei to understand, however self-evident it may be to those within Opus Dei..."<br /><br />I love your blog and look forward to reading it, but I just want to check – you do know that there are no vows in Opus Dei, don’t you? As a numerary member of Opus Dei, I am ‘bound by the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity and obedience’ in just the same way as you or any other Catholic lay-person, because that is what I am, and so are all other OD members. Yes, I’ve made a commitment to do my best to practise all the Christian virtues, but, as I say, Opus Dei members don’t take vows. The point is that my ‘obedience to my Opus Dei superiors’ extends to my spiritual life and apostolate, and specifically, necessarily, EXCLUDES the work I do as an employee – in my case, of a university. To say that Jack Valero ‘leaves his obedience to his Opus Dei superiors at the door’ of his work in Catholic Voices’ is, therefore, actually true. His ‘Opus Dei superiors’ do not tell him what to do or how to do it with regard to CV, and if they did, he would (very politely I feel sure) tell them to mind their own business, exactly as you would yourself, if the priest to whom you go to confession started telling you how to act in your professional sphere. So it’s a fact that Opus Dei as such REALLY is not involved in Catholic Voices in any way. If you’d like to check you can phone the person in charge of Opus Dei in the UK, Mgr. Nicholas Morrish.Helen Londonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04126800533359174977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-88334362938938876432012-01-18T19:12:28.204+00:002012-01-18T19:12:28.204+00:00I've never taken issue with you Ben and one of...I've never taken issue with you Ben and one of the reasons for that is that you are one of the few folk I actually learn from.<br /><br />But in this rare instance, I must agree with Nicolas.Stuart Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08198939874801282568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-85017491873493507382012-01-18T18:46:32.707+00:002012-01-18T18:46:32.707+00:00Ben Trovato: I said my comment was hesitant! Per...Ben Trovato: I said my comment was hesitant! Perhaps I was going too far in saying they should not have a personal blog. I think it depends upon what goes on the personal blog. If you are a spokesman for an organisation then anything you write on your personal blog which relates to the aims or views of that organisation is almost certainly, <b>rightly or wrongly</b>, going to be seen as speaking for that organisation or possibly reflecting the views of the management of that organisation. I just think they need to be more careful. <br /><br />John Smeaton has been accused of making "outrageous statements" by one CV member who complains that he does not allow comments on his blog. But nor does CV! Maybe both SPUC and CV would find monitoring comments too onerous and I can understand that. The CV member goes on to say that if there was a comments facility and she was attacked then she could reply with a comment in her defence. My concern would be that she would not be able to force the blogger to publish her defence. It might be preferable for CV to have a carefully monitored comments section which did not allow ad hominem attacks and certainly allowed people to defend themselves when attacked.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-66789350118499082012012-01-18T18:05:27.273+00:002012-01-18T18:05:27.273+00:00Nicolas, Stuart,
I think I disagree here. I am a...Nicolas, Stuart,<br /><br />I think I disagree here. I am a member of various bodies, most of which would hasten to distance themselves from much of what I write. That is one of the reasons for the pseudonym, of course.<br /><br />But it would strike me as a high price to pay, as a volunteer seeking to serve the Church as a CV member, to find that my own freedom to express individual opinions was completely curtailed. Being a member of CV is different, I would say, from being a cabinet member (or even a member of OD, come to that).<br /><br />I think it should be acceptable - and accepted - for individuals who sometimes volunteer to speak as a CV also to blog and speak in their own right. It may be helpful if they clearly label in which capacity they are contributing, but I would hope we could accept that in good faith.Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-4475639488182697442012-01-17T18:50:34.961+00:002012-01-17T18:50:34.961+00:00If you become a member then I think you have to re...<i>If you become a member then I think you have to realise that you will inevitably be seen, rightly or wrongly, as speaking on behalf of CV however much you assert that it is just a personal view.</i><br /><br />Absolutely spot on. This is exactly what I've been trying to say....Stuart Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08198939874801282568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-17055888503692245662012-01-17T10:33:34.690+00:002012-01-17T10:33:34.690+00:00It is a difficult problem and I hesitate to commen...It is a difficult problem and I hesitate to comment. However possibly the members of CV need to be more disciplined. If you become a member then I think you have to realise that you will inevitably be seen, rightly or wrongly, as speaking on behalf of CV however much you assert that it is just a personal view. It is rather like becoming a member of the Cabinet - you do not express contrary views outside the Cabinet. I cannot help feeling that members of CV should not have their personal blogs - I have found the attacks on John Smeaton on one such blog particularly unfortunate. To make up for this, CV itself should run a website where it would be possible to have a properly monitored and constructive discussion of issues<br />that CV have spoken or written about - such as the recent issue of civil partnerships.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-74986837169667174272012-01-16T17:34:03.205+00:002012-01-16T17:34:03.205+00:00Father
Thank you: you are quite right of course, ...Father<br /><br />Thank you: you are quite right of course, and I should have been more precise in my distinction. WIth regard to his teaching office, we are bound as you describe. But that does not, of course, extend to his personal opinions.Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-80846127351436914092012-01-16T17:15:41.860+00:002012-01-16T17:15:41.860+00:00Even in the Ordinary magisterium ( non infallible ...Even in the Ordinary magisterium ( non infallible )teaching of the Holy Father, we are bound to a submission of mind and willAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-78172856685598437962012-01-16T09:50:50.481+00:002012-01-16T09:50:50.481+00:00FO
Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly eno...FO<br /><br />Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly enough. <br /><br />Fairtrade is one attempt at a solution to a problem clearly identified by Catholic teaching; but whether it is the best, right, only, or just solution is a matter of legitimate debate. The enforced collectivisation of those who wish to benefit from Fairade status does raise some questions, and (and this is my point) there is more room for a nuanced view of this, than there is, say, for the legitimacy of homosexual actions and the promotion of 'gay marriage'...<br /><br />The Holy Father's prudential judgements are also not absolutely above criticism. He would be the first to make the distinction between infallible teaching of his office and his views and opinions as an individual theologian.<br /><br />Clearly we lend a lot of weight to his views, both in the light of his office and his own distinguished academic and spiritual record, and my default position is that he's far more likely to be right than wrong.<br /><br />But we are required to bring our intellects to our Faith, not simply to swallow something without thinking, simply because Father, His Lordship, His Grace, or even His Holiness says it.<br /><br />That was also, of course, my default position about our bishops for many years; but time after time, I have found that despite that default, I was ending up disagreeing with some of the pronouncements emanating from them and their people, particularly when they seemed at odds with both Catholic tradition and the Holy See. That default has, alas, been so eroded by experience (see for example, my recent post on why I am so bitter and twisted...) that it barely functions now in respect of them.<br /><br />That may be a fault in me, of course, but it is a sorry state of affairs when many Catholics struggling to live their Faith in difficult times, find themselves in such a position - and it seems that many do.Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-70030081173377995752012-01-16T08:25:53.091+00:002012-01-16T08:25:53.091+00:00Patricius,
Yes, I know what you mean - see my nex...Patricius,<br /><br />Yes, I know what you mean - see my next...<br /><br />Father, <br /><br />Thanks for your kind words: and I fully agree: more and better leadership from the bishops would be a huge improvement!Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-59941991079010913332012-01-16T08:25:06.886+00:002012-01-16T08:25:06.886+00:00Doesn't help to distinguish between bishops co...Doesn't help to distinguish between bishops commenting on faith and morals and their words on Fair Trade. Exploitation of the vulnerable and our responsibility for that IS a matter of faith and morals as much as is our commitment to the unborn child. Attacking our bishops on this ground takes away from the general argument and opens up the riposte that reminds you, Ben Trovato, that the Holy Father has had some pretty trenchant things to say on subjects like capitalist greed and the threat of climate change. Is he to be criticised too?Frederick Oakeleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830047562237782045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-61058859229781862412012-01-16T07:00:09.089+00:002012-01-16T07:00:09.089+00:00A very welcome post. Thank you. Though I think Bis...A very welcome post. Thank you. Though I think Bishops must also, sometimes, point possible ways forward if there is to be any real progress, even if sometimes they prove controversial.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-74709095711275169742012-01-16T00:02:49.389+00:002012-01-16T00:02:49.389+00:00It seems to me, as an outsider, that when the Cath...It seems to me, as an outsider, that when the Catholic Voices project was inaugurated one or two individuals who had been given to understand that they were to be involved in it were tactlessly dropped without notice. This was naturally hurtful to them and they appear to have been unable to view anything proceeding from CVs other than negatively and have been loud in their criticisms ever since. While this subsequent behaviour suggests that it was indeed wise to exclude people who lacked the necessary maturity and self-discipline it also seems to indicate some ineptitude on the part of those who set it up. No one is perfect. Perhaps the Catholic Voices will not always get things right- these are early days yet- but that there are individuals willing to put themselves out there in the media defending the Church as an alternative to the ghastly dissenting Catholics we have suffered for so long is something for which I am grateful.Patriciushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08906131174326742939noreply@blogger.com