tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post2863617438127981429..comments2023-10-15T09:36:12.013+01:00Comments on Countercultural Father: More on Cardinal Heenan and the MassBen Trovatohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-89408841962356019792012-04-23T06:21:57.233+01:002012-04-23T06:21:57.233+01:00I think the error is entirely mine and is more an ...I think the error is entirely mine and is more an error of terminology than a serious misunderstanding of the issue. I expect Simon is right about the term "The Eucharistic Prayer" not being in common use in 1967. Ben did quote the Cardinal correctly in the previous post and I did misquote it in my question.<br /><br />However the idea behind the question is valid even though it should have been expressed more exactly and Ben has addressed it in this post. Reading it gives me a better idea of where the Cardinal was coming from. <br /><br />"Protestenatized" and "feminised" are terms applied to the OF by people who don't like it; neither of them are convincing to me. Perhaps part 2 will give me a better idea of the feminisation argument. <br /><br />I do think (and this won't surprise Ben) that the greater prominence to scripture in the OF. From a personal point of view I find I have a good knowledge of the Gospels and many parts of the Epistles and Old Testament almost entirely from listening to them in Mass. This, for me, as I said, is a Good Thing.<br /><br />However I am entirely at one with Simon on his view of EPII which should, I think, be removed from the Missal without delay.Part-time Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11183889477468203531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-8207345619241115922012-04-23T00:34:17.520+01:002012-04-23T00:34:17.520+01:00Perhaps the point that Cardinal Heenan was trying ...Perhaps the point that Cardinal Heenan was trying to make may be expressed in musical terms. The old Low Mass might be characterised as "legato" by contrast with which the new rite appeared more "staccato". Visually, and perhaps aurally too, there was a simple well-established flowing rhythm to the old Low Mass, by comparison with which, the new rite involved more people moving about- for readings, for instance, and more changes of posture on the part of the congregation. There was, I recall, some bemusement at the latter! The abrupt, or as I would say, staccato quality of the visual and physical character of the new mass of itself would seem less conducive to prayer."The trouble with the new mass," as someone said to me, "is that it is so hard to say a prayer." We were "all shook up" as Elvis might have put it!Patriciushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08906131174326742939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-68335806859720035302012-04-22T22:18:58.545+01:002012-04-22T22:18:58.545+01:00Simon
Thanks - I think you are quite right, and I...Simon<br /><br />Thanks - I think you are quite right, and I had made the same error.Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-253865779660854699.post-63962800937563292872012-04-22T22:07:08.631+01:002012-04-22T22:07:08.631+01:00I think PTP has made a misinterpretation, and that...I think PTP has made a misinterpretation, and that some of your commentators on the previous point have it right, although I don't think they have picked up that particular misinterpretation I have in mind.<br /><br />The cardinal is quoted as regretting the reduced emphasis on "Eucharistic prayer", not "<i>the</i> Eucharistic prayer". I don't think he meant the Canon; I think (perhaps one older than I, or a scholar of recent liturgical history, can confirm or refute this) that the phrase "the Eucharistic prayer" would not have been widely used in 1967. Of course, the great majority of modern Masses in the new form do precisely reduce its emphasis, through use of the abbreviated option. But what I think the cardinal had in mind was the obscuring of sacrificial theology in the new form of Mass, throughout but particularly from the offertory. I think that the fact that this was a deliberate aim of the "reformers", precisely to make the Mass more acceptable to protestants, has been demonstrated.Simon Platthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16196039882299400327noreply@blogger.com